Alberto knot (modified albright) failing on cast

[MichaelAngelo]

This knot comes heavily recommended by a few experienced members of various fishing forums. It really is a gorgeous knot (very small profile), and I loved tying it.  

Well so far this year I've had that connection slip on me three times while casting, resulting in the flurocarbon leader and lure sailing into oblivion.  What I am left with is an empty braid knot that the flurocarbon just slipped out of.  

I did some googleing about it, and apparently this knot can be prone to fail when casting.  I'm not sure why.  

Anybody else have this experience happen to them?

I'm using uni to uni for now until I find an alternative.  That sucker doesn't slip!  Tried and true  

[OldTimer]

Expensive failures.

Were these 3 casts among your personal bests as far as distance goes?............smile

[MuskieBait]

Yes...Albright and Alberto knots are prone to slipping and failing.

You have to understand how the knot works in order to understand why it fails.

Both knots depends on tension on the line to hold the knot together. It is basically a Chinese finger trap, where the trap is created by a mesh of material (braid wrapped in criss cross around the leader). The tighter you pull, the more it grips and bites into the leader that is inside the trap.

When you cast, there may be episodes of tension/slack during the cast that tug/release your line. I suspect that it is these moments of "release" where the knot fails. It doesn't take too much of a slip for the criss cross wraps to become loose enough that the leader simply falls out. Tie an Alberto knot, and test it out by pinching your left fingers on the leader, pinching your right fingers on the braid, then repeatedly tugs and releases the line to generate episodes of tension/slack.

Some people reinforces the Albright or Alberto knot with a few half hitches...however, you cannot be careless about properly tightening of the knot before doing these half hitches, as the half hitches is only meant to keep the knot at a tensioned state, but not intended as a jam knot.

You already know which knot I use. If you think carefully about how the knots are tied, and what kind of key properties/elements within the knot are used to keep two lines together, you'll realize and understand how knots work or fail.

The uni-to-uni is a powerful jam knot. However, the knot is massive and the tag ends are perpendicular to the leader/mainline...and the tag end hits the guides on the cast, creating resistance on the cast leading to a decrease in distance. Jam knots are generally not prone to slipping though.

The reason I like my own version of the sebile/PR/slim beauty knot is that it combines elements of an effective Chinese finger trap, a helix of double line similar to a bimini that provides shock absorption, a jam knot that prevents slipping...and most importantly a connection where the direction of the leader tag is inline (parallel) to your braid so it is much more streamlined. The leader tag is never perpendicular to the mainline/leader. While the mainline (braid) is perpendicular, braid is flexible enough to cause little issue passing through the guide on the cast.

If you watch me tie my connection knot, you will see me put an effort to properly tension the criss crossing wraps before I start doing half hitches. You have to always remember that it is the wraps that keeps the knot together, not the figure 8 jam knot, or the half hitches. But tied properly, there are 3 different elements that actually prevent your knot from unraveling. Redundant? Yes...secure? Heck yeah! I'm not risking the biggest fish of my life to some hurriedly tied knot that is prone to slippage.

Yes, it takes time to tie...but "good things come to those who wait"

[onwind]

I always use uni to uni knot to connect braid and lead. but after a few casts the braid knot is tend to be worn. so now I check it often.

[MichaelAngelo]

(09-11-2014 06:26 AM)OldTimer Wrote:  Expensive failures.

Were these 3 casts among your personal bests as far as distance goes?............smile

LOL OT, expensive failures but much rather loose a few lures than a good fish. SO... I call that learning the semi-easy way. .


Ken, your post helped me understand the elements of knots and why they fail. Wicked explanation for how your knot works.

[MuskieBait]

(09-11-2014 10:08 PM)MichaelAngelo Wrote:  

(09-11-2014 06:26 AM)OldTimer Wrote:  Expensive failures.

Were these 3 casts among your personal bests as far as distance goes?............smile

LOL OT, expensive failures but much rather loose a few lures than a good fish. SO... I call that learning the semi-easy way. .

Ken, your post helped me understand the elements of knots and why they fail. Wicked explanation for how your knot works.

I call that not listening to Ken's prior advise and making mistakes your own way.

I've warned you about it...I've used it before and had it fail...and I don't trust either Albright or Alberto anymore. You're always looking for the easy way out with a simple and quick to tie knot. But look at the knots that GT and tuna anglers use to connect their braid to leader. Those guys don't mess around because their fish certain don't mess around. If you want to learn, learn from the BEST.

[MichaelAngelo]

I certainly do want the easy way out, a knot I can tie when I'm bumping around in the waves or have frozen fingers .

I tried the Red Philips knot last night. Very slim connection and features a single braid uni wrapped around a doubled length of fluorocarbon, and it is a jam knot. It's like your knot, but for 4 year olds . Actually, you could probably incorporate the double fluoro line idea into your knot.

Edit: Actually... just thought of something. If I take the time to tie GOOD knots off the water... then I won't have to worry at all about re-tying because the knots won't be failing! . Ah.

[MuskieBait]

(09-13-2014 05:56 PM)MichaelAngelo Wrote:  Edit: Actually... just thought of something. If I take the time to tie GOOD knots off the water... then I won't have to worry at all about re-tying because the knots won't be failing! . Ah.

Yes... ^ this...finally you are learning, grasshopper.

I never really have to retie a connection knot on the water...as long as my leader doesn't get cut too short...or get abraded.

But even if you have to tie knots on the go, it's worth taking the minute or two to tie an actual good knot.

Red Phillips looks interesting...but it is still a double line...making the size of the knot twice as thick as the mono/fluoro diameter. I'll stick to my "Ken's knot"...tried, trusted and true...never failed.

[MichaelAngelo]

The double line does add thickness, but reduces the likelyhood of the wraps cutting the fluoro. Similar idea as using a doubled braid line when making wraps to reduce the pressure on the fluoro. But I don't have to tell you that Ken, just thinking out loud.

[jmrueben1354]

(09-11-2014 03:55 AM)MichaelAngelo Wrote:  This knot comes heavily recommended by a few experienced members of various fishing forums. It really is a gorgeous knot (very small profile), and I loved tying it.  

Well so far this year I've had that connection slip on me three times while casting, resulting in the flurocarbon leader and lure sailing into oblivion.  What I am left with is an empty braid knot that the flurocarbon just slipped out of.  

I did some googleing about it, and apparently this knot can be prone to fail when casting.  I'm not sure why.  

Anybody else have this experience happen to them?

I'm using uni to uni for now until I find an alternative.  That sucker doesn't slip!  Tried and true  

I literally just made an account to tell you this. If you cut the braid too short on the tag end, then it may end up slipping through the loop, especially on heavier fluoro, and in turn, failing on the cast! I tied and tied it... casted and checked... casted and checked, and recently found out that if you cut the braid tag too short, then it WILL fail. Tight lines. I'm going out for snook tonight in Bradenton Florida! Wish me luck! I've found some big females all wintering together in a marina. Huge snook. I just bought 50 LB Seaguar fluoro blue label. It's on :O