Going forward in 2017 at OSF - 1

[OldTimer]

Hey,

After a significant amount of pondering and review I have come to the conclusion that the annual OSF Multi Species Challenge sees few participants due to the fact that puny runts of fish are considered an entry.

Sorry………………... This needed to be said, and discussed.

I agree that the wee fishes are quite interesting and colourful. But often they require special techniques and equipment many members lack - or will never own - or could really care less about in every aspect.

I am confident that I may not be alone in these considerations – as the underwhelming lack of participation has profoundly confirmed such.

Just possibly we might see more participation if the entries had a minimum size limit of say 8” (or even larger). This would allow most “rough” and “non-game” species to be an allowed entry………….. And at the same it just might promote more OSF membership participation in the challenge……….AND reports and discussion………….and……………..and…………

I think we may need a change here…………….now…………… How bout you?

Cheers,

OldTimer

[zippyFX]

I think the micro adds a unique twist to the competition but I agree that it could be a barrier to entry to many (though I am not as convinced as you are that it is keeping people fron entering).

I would be open to having multiple or combined categories; there could be a standard, micro, combined component to the competition; though last year I think all prizes would have gone to the same person

Anything that keeps it interesting and fun is good by me.

[OldTimer]

(01-21-2017 08:20 PM)zippyFX Wrote:  I think the micro adds a unique twist to the competition but I agree that it could be a barrier to entry to many (though I am not as convinced as you are that it is keeping people fron entering).

I would be open to having multiple or combined categories; there could be a standard, micro, combined component to the competition; though last year I think all prizes would have gone to the same person

Anything that keeps it interesting and fun is good by me.

Interesting - I do like this " standard, micro, combined" idea.

[MuskieBait]

When Michael and I discussed this contest in the past, it was to encourage members to explore new species and new techniques. And evidently, the contest has accomplished its goals. Just look at ZippyFX and Fossil Fish and their growing interesting in anything and everything catchable.

There are already enough contest online or in real life focusing on fish species that are "not small" or "worthy species". Do we really need another one of them just so members can do more of the same?

As a teacher, I see a lot of students make excuses for not doing something..."It's too hard"..."It's not interesting"..."It's not differentiated enough"..."It's not worth my time"..."What's the point of it anyways?"

And then I see some students who will do anything to achieve something amazing. They will do their own research, go out and get all their own material, spend enormous amount of time of something that other will not, and then all of it comes to fruition that will even make PhD's impressed.

Those who are not willing will never be willing...no matter how much you accommodate them. Those who are willing won't let anything stop them.

[OldTimer]

(01-27-2017 07:50 PM)MuskieBait Wrote:  When Michael and I discussed this contest in the past, it was to encourage members to explore new species and new techniques. And evidently, the contest has accomplished its goals. Just look at ZippyFX and Fossil Fish and their growing interesting in anything and everything catchable.

There are already enough contest online or in real life focusing on fish species that are "not small" or "worthy species". Do we really need another one of them just so members can do more of the same?

As a teacher, I see a lot of students make excuses for not doing something..."It's too hard"..."It's not interesting"..."It's not differentiated enough"..."It's not worth my time"..."What's the point of it anyways?"

And then I see some students who will do anything to achieve something amazing. They will do their own research, go out and get all their own material, spend enormous amount of time of something that other will not, and then all of it comes to fruition that will even make PhD's impressed.

Those who are not willing will never be willing...no matter how much you accommodate them. Those who are willing won't let anything stop them.

Citing the accomplishments of 2 members from a sea of 2000+ members should be pondered a while regarding what evidence it provides regarding the popularity of the contest.

Only 4 members participated............. ZippyFX, FossilFish, MA and I.

We need to do something different - else we will have the same dismal participation going forward.

Zippy’s suggestion of several categories provides for all levels of “willingness” to participate – without prejudice.

As you point out - One must be willing to try new things, and changes.

As always………………. opinions vary…………..

Cheers,

OldTimer

[Deadfisher]

Personally I love the challenge, but like many, have passed on participation due to a general lack of diversity in my catch. There's definitely an advantage to those who fish micros and those who have the opportunity for extensive travel. Perhaps a change in format might generate more participation with the addition of several sub-categories: micros, ice fishing, fly fishing, explosives etc.
Just my too sense.

[OldTimer]

Explosives?.....cool.......Now we're talkin................

   

Will partial fish count......... or do ya just get a fractional entry?

[zippyFX]

(01-28-2017 03:25 PM)Deadfisher Wrote:  Personally I love the challenge, but like many, have passed on participation due to a general lack of diversity in my catch. There's definitely an advantage to those who fish micros and those who have the opportunity for extensive travel. Perhaps a change in format might generate more participation with the addition of several sub-categories: micros, ice fishing, fly fishing, explosives etc.
Just my too sense.

I won the explosives category last year:

[MuskieBait]

(01-28-2017 08:44 AM)OldTimer Wrote:  Citing the accomplishments of 2 members from a sea of 2000+ members should be pondered a while regarding what evidence it provides regarding the popularity of the contest.

Only 4 members participated............. ZippyFX, FossilFish, MA and I.

We need to do something different - else we will have the same dismal participation going forward.

Zippy’s suggestion of several categories provides for all levels of “willingness” to participate – without prejudice.

As you point out - One must be willing to try new things, and changes.

As always………………. opinions vary…………..

Cheers,

OldTimer

OT...you mentioned that when I cited 2 members that were encouraged to experiment out of the 2000+ members on OSF as bad evidence...

Well, let me ask you...how many members out of that 2000+ regularly even contribute a fishing report regularly...a discussion on technique regularly...or simply a "nice catch" regularly on the latest fishing reports? What's the percentage of that? I think you need to compare contest participating members as a fraction of ACTIVE members...not those 16'ers that came and went and never seen again. That's not a fair comparison at all.

Let's count the number of members who posted one or more fishing report in 2016. The new members posting their first report is not included...you and I know very well that the first report is just a means to gain entry into the report section. The vast majority of members who had posted their first report never posted again. So they are excluded here.

Here goes...active contributor to fishing reports since Jan 2016:

Oldtimer, tweedwolfscream, Muskiebait, PUMPKNOWS, Deadfisher, Toasty, zippyFX, Eli, ST_ShoreFisher, wknd outdoorsman

And I'll include FossilFish because he was definitely in the contest and fishing.

So that's 11 members! All YEAR! Heck? You think there's a low participation issue with the contest? How about general low engagement issue with the forum? Maybe we should change that first before dealing with the contest. Those who are not willing to even hang around the forum certainly won't be here to enter a silly contest just for bragging rights. They may not even want to be engaged in the first place, besides asking for new fishing locations or looking up the latest fishing report to find the latest hot action.

So if you REALLY want to crunch the numbers to give you a representative picture, you have 4 members in the contest out of 11 active members. Heck...that's 36.36%! And out of that, 2 members (18.18%) were influenced by the contest to diversify their fishing...realizing the goal that MA and I hoped to accomplished with the contest. Man, that's AWESOME! If MA and I were to actually join in (which I voluntarily opted out to make the playing field fair and achieveable)...that's even greater participation.

But hey, where's our fearless leader MA throughout this year? Without leadership and a vision, the group simply falls apart...

Consider this...in 2012 and 2013, when the contest was first introduced, there were 9 participants. But out of those 9, some member, like Guiga10, Onwind and McFly, had not posted consistently, or at all, for the past couple of years. Where did they go? Why are they not engaged in the forum like they were in the past?

I've seen really great forums fall apart...when some core members got busy, got married, had kids, bought a house, grew up, moved away, changed fishing interest...and the forum just fell apart. It happens...more often than you think...especially for niche or grass root group like here.

So the low participation in the contest is simply a reflection of low forum engagement in general. Unless you use prizes to draw people to it.

Now...let's say you were right...and your argument is valid that perhaps there are more members interested (which I've shown with DATA to be contrary to the argument)...

You can't please everyone...and you can't make it all an even playing field.

Let's consider the proposed categories, shall we? I am very openminded, after all.

Standard - Compare Thames River with over 40 standard species vs. Haliburton Lake with only 8 standard species. How is it possible for us to make it a level playing field for a member who lives in Haliburton, but not wiling to drive a hour or two to reach more species rich waters?

Micro - Again, northern waters is relative poor in diversity compared to the north....even though most people think micros give an unfair advantage.

Fly - Let's just consider rivers alone. North shore Huron trib vs. Grand River. No comparison. I can outfish you on the fly with "trash fish" on the Grand before you even catch 5 species on the fly on a north shore Huron trib...

Icefishing - Should we discuss how North Bay season starts in mid-December and ends in mid-April vs southern Ontario where we are barely even able to get on the ice for the past couple of winters? Where's the fairness and level playing field? Should we discuss how plentiful fish are in the northern lakes, while members can barely catch a 1h north of GTA walleye through the ice?

Anything else?

Fact is...you can't level the playing field...unless you fish on the same lake or river as a venue. When you are doing an online contest, there will always be advantages and disadvantages. Some will be advantageous for you, and some will be against you.

And that's why we decided to keep prizes out of this contest. That's why it's just for fun. And participation is just to challenge members to beat their personal best or chase the board leader. If you include prizes, and the playing field is not level, then you have constant whining that it isn't fair. Then you end up with a bass contest in the very end.

If distance is too far and you don't want to drive to catch a number of species for a silly online contest, you simply won't do it.

I'll tell you what's the cause of the low participation...the lack of material prizes. It's been brought up before by other members...and even MA. People don't want to waste time and money on a silly contest just for bragging rights.

I'll bet you...if there is a nice fishing combo, a sonar or a boat as a prize, there will be people participating and there will be more people fishing for silly little micros just to win those prizes! Why do you think people enter salmon derby and bass tournaments? Because there's a material or monetary reward. Heck, they would even PAY to enter those contest even if they chances of winning is against them. People do cost benefit analysis in their heads all the time...and the cost to gain bragging rights is just not equal to the benefit. But hey, if the cost was gas but the benefit was potentially a boat...it's a whole different ball game.

People will make excuses...

Heck, people drive further than a couple of hours just to try to catch a walleye for a meal on a weekend trip...or a big bass to brag about at the water cooler on Monday. People drive all the way to Nipissing just to try to catch their first walleye. People spent 2 years or more on Simcoe just trying to catch a Lake Whitefish through the ice. All that money spend with little reward...yet they persist. If people value something, and there's a will, there's a way. It's all about MOTIVATION.

[Fossil Fish]

For the record, I posted 8 trip reports last year. Of the 37 species I caught last year, there were only a couple that I went out of my way to find. All others were in the vicinity of places I would have been regardless. As far as the micros, the only special equipment is tiny hooks. Other than that, it's the same UL rod and line I use for perch and sunfish (and carp and catfish for fun). So, travel and gear should not be limiting agents, it's mostly convincing yourself to go after the smaller species. Once you have the mindset that small fish are as much or more of a challenge than (standard" sized ones, your total grows a lot faster. Personally, I have a "collectors" brain. I would rather drive a couple of hours for a chance at a new species to add to my list than drive a couple of minutes to Lake Simcoe for the same bass, sunfish and perch over and over, unless of course I'm looking for a meal.