(10-10-2012 07:10 PM)Jeremy Ray Green Wrote: [ -> ]I Wish to share fishing with everyone, Even if it means sharing with people that dont care to preserve the fishing options as much as other do.
If we can create a large fishing community in our areas we like to fish, than eventually the more caring fishermen will outweigh the ones that dont care too much, if the group is large enough and that group shows its presence often enough the ones that dont care will know they are not welcomed...
For me, I share when possible 
...
~Jeremy.
I really wish that's how it works...but in actuality, it doesn't work that way.
It's salmon season...a walk down the creek will show you that it doesn't work that way.
You have people...
- fishing without license
- snagging salmon with treble hooks
- keeping more than their limit of salmon (and some even drive home to unload their fish and then come back to keep more!)
- slitting an easily identifiable male salmon thinking they can harvest eggs from this fish, finding disappointed that it was a male, and leaving the still alive fish on the bank to rot
- just slitting a female for the eggs and leaving the rest of the fish to rot on the bank (wasting of fish which is illegal)
- wading right through redds.
- cast over your line because they see you hook up a fish
- squeezing in to fish right beside you that is less than a rod's length away
- wading through the pool you are fishing
So many loogans...and they certainly outnumbered the ethical anglers. That's why we all hate fishing on weekends...
I strongly believe that EVERYONE must take a course and pass a test on fishing etiquette before a license can be purchased...and once you have passed the test, any future offense cannot be plead with ignorant or innocence. Simple as that...so MNR officers can just go and ticket...and the judges can just sentence away.
(10-11-2012 05:32 PM)MuskieBait Wrote: [ -> ]I strongly believe that EVERYONE must take a course and pass a test on fishing etiquette before a license can be purchased...and once you have passed the test, any future offense cannot be plead with ignorant or innocence. Simple as that...so MNR officers can just go and ticket...and the judges can just sentence away.
I talked about this with Hammercarp earlier this year.
I think it's a great idea. The regulations are far too easy to overlook and ignore. The "slap on the wrist" for fishing offences will be no more. edit: I've met so many anglers who don't even know the regulations summary exists nor have they read it.
The government can recoup the money lost in fishing licence sales in ticket revenue!
Combined with signage at major water bodies with MAX FINE warnings. It sounds good to me.
Such negative thoughts............ lighten up!
It really is supposed to be a fun pastime.
Yes there are jerks - but they are everywhere............. not just in angling.
If we had no salmon - all these complaints would vanish........... hmmmmm..............
And I personally believe that the overwhelming vast majority of anglers are nice law abiding guys just like us.
The glass is half full............... really really................
How many phone calls have you made to report things? ....................Truthfully.......... Not part of the solution........then......etc. etc.
If you don't agree - please advise the size of soap box you wish - for all your rants in public...............smile
Cheers,
OldTimer
(10-11-2012 06:33 PM)OldTimer Wrote: [ -> ]Such negative thoughts............ lighten up!
It really is supposed to be a fun pastime.
Yes there are jerks - but they are everywhere............. not just in angling.
If we had no salmon - all these complaints would vanish........... hmmmmm..............
And I personally believe that the overwhelming vast majority of anglers are nice law abiding guys just like us.
The glass is half full............... really really................
How many phone calls have you made to report things? ....................Truthfully.......... Not part of the solution........then......etc. etc.
If you don't agree - please advise the size of soap box you wish - for all your rants in public...............smile
Cheers,
OldTimer
LOL good one OT.
I know calls to the TIPS hotline don't seem to help, but if they get repeated calls about a certain area they definitely check things out.
I don't think implementing an exam for fishing licencing is a bad idea. I think it's a great idea and would show that Ontario is serious about conserving itself as the global freshwater fishing capital!
edit: they do this for hunting... why not fishing? why not? I know I'm one to complain about the onslaught of testing required to obtain a Drivers Liscence in Ontario. Nevertheless, I strongly feeling that a licencing exam and increased signage would help promote conservation.
edit2: I put this in a new thread as I would really like to hear everyone's feedback on this issue
.
I'm negative about it...because I've seen first hand how it happened...and I'm bitter how even when MNR response, people who are found guilty are fine with amounts that is basically a joke. Then you have those repeat offenders.
If you think this is just salmon, wow!
I've seen this on the ice at Lake Simcoe...people fishing with no licenses, or keeping over their limit of perch, or keeping a herring thinking it was a lake whitefish, or people seeing you catch a lake trout and drill a hole 10 feet from you (when you are fishing over 100 feet of water)...people traveling in packs with binoculars on snowmobiles who look for someone with some fish on the ice then descend on this poor person and surround them while radio their buddies to come over and invade the space (all the while their gas auger scare the whitefish out of the area...I've seen this on the sonar!)...
I've seen this on Center Island where people were fishing frogs and bass lures before opener for bedding bass...so frequently that it just irritates the hell out of me. They act all professional angler like with their gear and poach bedding bass, then when I approach them and tell them bass season was still closed, they either act all innocent or tell me to "F-off". MNR officers wouldn't bother to take the ferry to Center Island...
I've seen this at High Park where people came and fished out the Duck Pond, keeping 1lb carp and bullhead by the bag full. This was a stormwater retention pond that was not the cleanest, yet, people didn't care and some fished with as many as 3 rods. Of course MNR couldn't be bothered to come and investigate a tiny little stormwater retention pond. Again, I tried to educate people that you are only allowed one rod per person and the water is much too dirty to be keeping fish, yet they (including two 10 y.o. boys) tell me to "F-Off"...
The river where you fish often, OT, I've seen locals who said they just came after dinner and went to fish for smallmouth bass in May when I was fly fishing for Mooneye. I've seen people kept bass out of season and hid them in the car then went out fishing for more. I've to tell some locals who claimed they lived down the street and fished there all their lives that walleye season is still closed at the end of April and they had to release their walleye. They claimed they had kept countless walleye through the years and no one cares.
I've tried to educated people in places where I fished...and all I get is an "F-off, mind your own business" response. I try to approach these people with a positive attitude, tried to educate instead of condemn, tried to be polite and respectful. Maybe in the places where I fish I just run into more idiots...I don't know...but after so many years of this, I am bitter.
Fishing ethics and fishing laws are two different things...There are laws that allow you to keep 25 panfish...but there are people who keep 25 panfish that are 3-4" long...the fishing courses should teach not only laws but also ethics. What may be lawful may not be ethical.
If people had to take a course before getting their license, at least they will be educated with some concepts of fishing laws, ethics and etiquette. For those who are truly ignorant, they are now educated. For those who chose to ignore and break the law, now they have no excuse to break the law and MNR officers can just ticket away and the judge can just sentence away. Of course, we do need MNR officers to respond to calls...and we do need more officers. The way I see it, this way more people will be ticketed and more money can go back to increase enforcement.
It's just like driving...you passed a driver's exam...you know there are speeding limits...when you go 30 over the limit, or run a red, or run a stop sign, or hit someone, or drink and drive...there is no pleading innocence when you are caught...sure, there are ticket fighters...but money is still coming out of your pocket in the end either way...
Ken I totally agree,
Where I live there are 6 main stormwater retention ponds which produce a very wide variety of fish. When ever I go there there is without a doubt people there fishing for keeps, and to add, they are fishing illegally. They have 3-4 rods in the water all rigged up with 3-6 hooks and a worm on each hook. To add, they keep over the limit amount of fish and keep the fish smaller than the palm of my hand (and I've got pretty small hands) and of course they don't have licenses, why would they. 6 years ago I fished one of the ponds with my brother and we pulled out 1-3 LB Bass consistently. Over time people got to know these ponds and it became a feeding ground for humans. I fish all of these ponds daily now and am lucky to get a fish over 5 inches. The fish are being fished, out of season, over the limit amount, and undersized, I'M SICK OF IT! The fish are given no time to spawn and when it is spawning season, the fish aren't even matured enough to be able to spawn, there just babies. To make the matters even worse, these "anglers" are filthy bastards (srry for the language) they come in with 4 bags and a box of worms and they leave with one bag full of baby fish and actually throw their leftover crap right into the water, to sink and pollute.
I'm tired of this and something needs to be done. We should continue this discussion and maybe one day we can put a stop to this madness, because if we keep promoting this "let's all be friends and enjoy fishing" crap, there will be no fish left to catch!
Giuga10
(10-11-2012 08:38 PM)Giuga10 Wrote: [ -> ]because if we keep promoting this "let's all be friends and enjoy fishing" crap, there will be no fish left to catch!
Giuga10
I wouldn't call it "crap", we can all be friends and enjoy fishing but I also feel we have to be mindful of the bad apples.
I can personally vouch for Giuga10's observations, we live in the same neighbourhood and agree that we have to find something we can do to help.... I don't know what though...
All the chest pounding, whining, and rants in the world on this small forum will never change or improve things. But they may make you feel better I suppose.
IMHO:
Condemnation of actions that are not illegal is only one’s personal opinion or preference at best. Personally I hate the New York Yankees, The Montreal Canadians, and mutton……….. Do you really care or want to hear it?
I’m all for angler education – but at the same time I cannot support additional big brother involvement and control in my life or my children’s.
On tests: Does this mean that those under 18 years old can’t fish without passing a test…………..? They don’t need a licence and many seem quite oblivious to the regulations. (Particularly those damn 4 year olds and their great grandparents……….….smile)
Those throwing rocks and making sweeping condescending remarks should at least be quite familiar with, have experience in, and have historically abided by the current regulations.
Even though small, this forum helps educate and promote fishing ethics and law abiding behaviour. As do others. Good stuff.
Furthermore, parental guidance and mentoring on the “right” way - is key to diminishing violations. More Good stuff.
I would support general public awareness advertising campaigns in the press and medias so that all persons (not just those fishing) know what is illegal - thus vastly increasing peer, and family pressure for all to comply. I doubt anyone wants to look like a criminal jerk to their family, spouse, friends, and kids.
We really do have some suitable angling laws – unfortunately we don’t have the support network or sufficient MNR field personnel for effective enforcement. YES - This area could stand to hire a few more officers at least during the soft water seasons. Along this line - I would support much tougher penalties within these laws under the criminal code of CANADA (not just Ontario) with harsh minimum sentences including stiff fines, imprisonment, permanent loss of fishing equipment and privileges, and loss of passports or the ability to get one. Violations may decrease if offenders understand they will lose freedoms, their job, time, and money, while acquiring a permanent criminal record that will follow and impede them forever in all of this country while cancelling all future trips outside of it.
And……… by the way………. In spite of driver and hunter education, and licencing……….. These laws are broken every day. 100% compliance in any regulation may be wishful thinking and perhaps folly.
In the meantime “let's all be friends and enjoy fishing”………….all my friends obey the fishing laws while we enjoy it.
…………….Or take up another pastime that you might like better………… all that frustration, hatred, and anger is not good for you.
“Life may not be the party we hoped for... but while we are here we might as well dance!”
Cheers,
OldTimer
Parental guidance and mentoring is key and I agree. However, when the parents don't know better and cannot guide or mentor, or even worse, misguide and mislead, then you spawn a new generation of mislead children.
In a Utopian world, maybe everyone will follow laws and be ethical. In a utopian world, "big brother" is not necessary. Unfortunately, we are far from Utopia...if we're there already, wake me up...All I read is death and destruction in the news...
These tests that I firmly believe in are meant for license requiring anglers of 16 and over to pass and to obtain licenses. If parental guidance and mentoring is key as you say, parents who took these course will have the right knowledge to pass on to the kids. So even when the kids are not required to have licenses to fish, that ideology is passed on from parents to kids anyways...so when they are old enough to graduate to a fishing license holder, they should pass that test easily and with flying colours.
In fact, this system is to ensure that the "leaders" of the sport (the adults) are well qualified to teach the "future" of the sport (the kids). Similar to the driving.
As Michael and I are Toronto Urban Fishing Ambassadors, we are well aware that children are the future and education and awareness programs are needed to reach the public. However, our efforts are just small grass root movements. We need a province wide (dare I say country wide) movement. The best way is for the "big brother" such as Ministry of Natural Resource to get involved.
I never say that compliance will be 100%. We can't even expect that. However, this is a way to ensure that those who are interested in fishing will have the required knowledge of regulations and ethics. Those who chose to fish without license will be prosecuted without question. Those who break laws even following the course will have no excuse of ignorance. That's the basic premise of it.
Right now, anyone can get a license and fish without EVER picking up a set of fishing regulations. A lot of people don't even know what Zone 16 is...and then you have those who know about seasons and limits from hearsay (my friend said this and that)...
All my friend obey fishing laws and many are obsessed with fishing...but we are really a tiny percentage of anglers represented here. Most anglers I met do not even know there are fishing forums or they do not participate on forums. I would dare say that over 90% of the people I met are not on forums.
If I in some way gave the impression that I believe we are in Utopia. Please excuse me and let me correct that: I don’t.
Training of all citizens via information campaigns, or advertising if you will, may help to a small degree in situations where the parents never have fished nor intend to get a licence at any time.
There are people out there that don’t even know a licence is required so mandatory training benefits are doubtful in this situation. Advertising might help……….. can’t hurt.
Other possible actions: We all get our plastic Outdoors Card in the mail. In my mind it might be real handy that in all cases we also be sent a set of the current regulations for the sport(s) covered by your card…………..more reality: I know that not all temporary licence issuers have hard copies of the regs to hand out………… make this a mandatory legal requirement for these issuers and a sign off point……….. then in either of these two instances not a licenced angler out there can say they have never seen the regs and plead ignorance.
Setting up quick fixes or taking short cuts, in my memory, has usually led to problems eventually. Long term problems require long term methodical solutions. There are many possible solutions and I do understand that the MNR is already involved.
In my crystal ball I see a greater presence of enforcement soon. Too much ugly ink and chatter this season will fan this flame.
Did I tell ya I hate mutton…………….. smile.
Cheers,
OldTimer