Ontario Shore Fishing Forum

(08-21-2013 12:00 PM)MuskieBait Wrote: [ -> ]...just like if you shoot yourself with a gun, you likely will not do it again.

How 'bout hangovers...........smile.

OT

(08-21-2013 03:01 PM)OldTimer Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-21-2013 12:00 PM)MuskieBait Wrote: [ -> ]...just like if you shoot yourself with a gun, you likely will not do it again.

How 'bout hangovers...........smile.

OT

You give humans too much credit...humans are really not that smart...after all, we spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours trying to fool a lower lifeform like a fish to bite a hook...that just shows how intelligent we really are

Getting skunked over and over again is painful too...yet we still do it...we're not that smart after all.

Plus, we're different from fish. Fish may tolerate the pain to actually eat to survive...we go fishing to get skunked FOR PLEASURE!

(08-21-2013 12:00 PM)MuskieBait Wrote: [ -> ]I only see facts...

1) Humans cannot ingest crustaceans (crayfish, lobsters, crabs, shrimp) whole. The sharp spines on their shells easily cut our lips, mouth and gums and we know better than to injure ourselves. Fish like bass, red drum, skates, rays and sharks do not have an issue with that. In fact, those are their favourite food items.

2) Humans cannot ingest fish with spiny fins whole. The sharp fin spines easily cut our lips, mouth and gums and we know better than to injure ourselves. Most fish species have no issues with that. In fact, that's the primary food source.

So if fish feels pain in their mouth area, they would not even be able to feed, since that pain associated with eating will prevent the fish from feeding...just like if you shoot yourself with a gun, you likely will not do it again.

But you're assuming that the fish is cutting itself with the spines and shells of its food. The mouth and esophogas of a person is not the same as the mouth and digestive tract of a fish that is designed to safely ingest those food items whole.

If the fish was tearing up its mouth/digestive tract on a regular basis it would be prone to infection. Not a good survival strategy. So this leads me to believe that a fish is not causing harm to itself when it swallows spiny fish or shelled critters whole.

Exactly...so if fish has that type of adaption...then how can we assume that fish can feel pain just the same that we can...that would be a huge assumption.

I too suffer from few nights of emotional distress when a toothy critter takes away my pricey Rapala crankbait! Pain also goes both ways!

some pretty crazy 'theories' posted (cold-blooded animals cannot feel pain, eating spiking things means they feel no pain).

it's obvious that fish do not like being hooked. whether anyone wants to classify that as pain like humans feel or discomfort, the bottom line is that there's some suffering happening. this is necessary for long-term survival of a species such as fish.

i fish myself, but do not delude myself with things like 'fish feel no pain'.

(08-23-2013 12:37 PM)ST_ShoreFisher Wrote: [ -> ]some pretty crazy 'theories' posted (cold-blooded animals cannot feel pain, eating spiking things means they feel no pain).

it's obvious that fish do not like being hooked. whether anyone wants to classify that as pain like humans feel or discomfort, the bottom line is that there's some suffering happening. this is necessary for long-term survival of a species such as fish.

i fish myself, but do not delude myself with things like 'fish feel no pain'.

Eating things with spines does not necessarily means they do not feel pain...it just means their pain tolerance and their pain perception is different from ours...

It's like the difference between the bottom of your feet vs. your lips. The bottom of your feet has thicker skin layers and can tolerate heat and sharper objects much better than your lips.

Some areas of skin also have less neurons and pain receptors than others, so the reception and signaling of pain is much different than other more sensitive areas. Some people can put a needle through the first layer of their epidermis, but they can't do that for their lips.

What I'm saying is that lip hooking a fish is different from lip hooking a person...as such, you can't assume it will register the same pain perception. Again, adaption and specialization of different part of the body by different animals allow them to do different things, and the pain perception cannot be generalized and assumed.

Like I said before...I've hooked fish 2 or 3 times on the same day before, even catching the same Rockbass 3 times on 5 consecutive casts! When a fish bites a bait, gets hooked, gets released, and then comes back to bite again, you have to question how much pain and that memory of pain the fish actually registered. If you shoot yourself in the leg, would you do it again so soon after?

Ever been icefishing and have a fish takes 2 or 3 baited lines at the same time? If a fish feels pain after getting hooked on the first line, what makes it take the second line when it should be running away from the painful experience? I'm not making any of this stuff up...I'm speaking from real experience. I've had pike took two lines, I've had lake trout took two lines.

I've had fish hooked, got off them hook, then the fish came back and took the same lure/bait again to be hooked a second time...Would you hook yourself in the lips once, pull the hook out, and then do it again?

(08-21-2013 03:14 PM)MuskieBait Wrote: [ -> ]Plus, we're different from fish. Fish may tolerate the pain to actually eat to survive...we go fishing to get skunked FOR PLEASURE!

(08-23-2013 12:37 PM)ST_ShoreFisher Wrote: [ -> ]i fish myself, but do not delude myself with things like 'fish feel no pain'.

Perhaps it is fishing we delude ourselves with...........

OT

(08-23-2013 03:04 PM)OldTimer Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-21-2013 03:14 PM)MuskieBait Wrote: [ -> ]Plus, we're different from fish. Fish may tolerate the pain to actually eat to survive...we go fishing to get skunked FOR PLEASURE!

(08-23-2013 12:37 PM)ST_ShoreFisher Wrote: [ -> ]i fish myself, but do not delude myself with things like 'fish feel no pain'.

Perhaps it is fishing we delude ourselves with...........

OT

HA!

---

(08-23-2013 02:48 PM)MuskieBait Wrote: [ -> ]Eating things with spines does not necessarily means they do not feel pain...it just means their pain tolerance and their pain perception is different from ours...

Or it could mean what you said below, less nerves, thicker 'skin', etc.
I just find it funny that people can make blanket statements about this when researchers (who know way more about this stuff than anyone here) have such a hard time nailing this one down.

(08-23-2013 02:48 PM)MuskieBait Wrote: [ -> ]It's like the difference between the bottom of your feet vs. your lips. The bottom of your feet has thicker skin layers and can tolerate heat and sharper objects much better than your lips.

Some areas of skin also have less neurons and pain receptors than others, so the reception and signaling of pain is much different than other more sensitive areas. Some people can put a needle through the first layer of their epidermis, but they can't do that for their lips.

ok, i can see your point. what i am saying is that i doubt anyone knows for sure whether or not fish feel pain, period.

(08-23-2013 02:48 PM)MuskieBait Wrote: [ -> ]What I'm saying is that lip hooking a fish is different from lip hooking a person...as such, you can't assume it will register the same pain perception. Again, adaption and specialization of different part of the body by different animals allow them to do different things, and the pain perception cannot be generalized and assumed.

Like I said before...I've hooked fish 2 or 3 times on the same day before, even catching the same Rockbass 3 times on 5 consecutive casts! When a fish bites a bait, gets hooked, gets released, and then comes back to bite again, you have to question how much pain and that memory of pain the fish actually registered. If you shoot yourself in the leg, would you do it again so soon after?

Ever been icefishing and have a fish takes 2 or 3 baited lines at the same time? If a fish feels pain after getting hooked on the first line, what makes it take the second line when it should be running away from the painful experience? I'm not making any of this stuff up...I'm speaking from real experience. I've had pike took two lines, I've had lake trout took two lines.

I've had fish hooked, got off them hook, then the fish came back and took the same lure/bait again to be hooked a second time...Would you hook yourself in the lips once, pull the hook out, and then do it again?

never said i equated fish lips with human ones.

your experience is something that i've never heard of (fish continuing to get hooked after already hooked). this might be a big clue about the pain they suffer when hooked through the lips (not much pain if any at all). so I can see your point-of-view, and will now consider that a lot more than before.

I just think people like to dismiss things (fish pain, etc) as a way of sleeping better at night. Same thing applies when we hear about all the bad stuff that happens in our world; people tend to make up 'reasons' why such and such happened as a way to clear their conscience (those people always bomb each other, the mother shouldn't have let her kids near a pool unsupervised, etc). we do this even when the victims were not in any way at fault. a human instinct maybe.

(08-27-2013 01:10 PM)ST_ShoreFisher Wrote: [ -> ]your experience is something that i've never heard of (fish continuing to get hooked after already hooked). this might be a big clue about the pain they suffer when hooked through the lips (not much pain if any at all). so I can see your point-of-view, and will now consider that a lot more than before.

I have caught many fish in my day that had multiple scar evidence of previous hook ups............ and I have caught many fish with other anglers hooks (and on few occasions - lures) still in their mouths.......... and I have on several occasions caught the same fish more than once (several more than twice) on the same day.

Do fish experience pain........ beats me....... don't know & don't care............ If I did I wouldn't fish ------ how bout you?

Cheers,

OldTimer