Posession limits and fishing different bodies of water

[tweedwolfscream]

(02-25-2014 11:04 PM)Eli Wrote:  You have to obey the rules of where you're fishing at a given time.

i.e.: It is illegal to fish for and keep sturgeon on the Ontario side of the Ottawa River. It is legal to keep one sturgeon in season on the Quebec side of the river. You'd be rightly slapped with a fine for keeping one in Quebec then crossing back into Ontario and having it in your possession while fishing the river.

Fishing at the provincial boundary is a lot more clear, it's spelled out on page 11 of the regs:

Quote:Limits in Boundary Waters
Anglers who fish in waters that lie both in Ontario and another province or state must include the total number of fish caught anywhere in those waters as part of the number caught and kept or possessed under the Ontario recreational fishing regulations when bringing those fish into Ontario.

No such clarity when it comes to balancing limits on different lakes within Ontario.

[MichaelAngelo]

(02-25-2014 11:37 PM)tweedwolfscream Wrote:  

(02-25-2014 11:04 PM)Eli Wrote:  You have to obey the rules of where you're fishing at a given time.

i.e.: It is illegal to fish for and keep sturgeon on the Ontario side of the Ottawa River. It is legal to keep one sturgeon in season on the Quebec side of the river. You'd be rightly slapped with a fine for keeping one in Quebec then crossing back into Ontario and having it in your possession while fishing the river.

Fishing at the provincial boundary is a lot more clear, it's spelled out on page 11 of the regs:

Quote:Limits in Boundary Waters
Anglers who fish in waters that lie both in Ontario and another province or state must include the total number of fish caught anywhere in those waters as part of the number caught and kept or possessed under the Ontario recreational fishing regulations when bringing those fish into Ontario.

No such clarity when it comes to balancing limits on different lakes within Ontario.

So you cannot catch a sturgeon in Quebec and bring it into Ontario.

[MuskieBait]

The MNR clearly defines your possession limit.

"The possession limit is the number you are allowed to have in your possession on hand, in cold storage, in transit or anywhere. Possession limits are the same as one day's catch limit except where otherwise specified."

It is a conundrum when it comes to roving anglers who may fish northern lakes where possession limit of C - 6 or S -12 Lake Whitefish are allowed, while the same angler may fish on Lake Simcoe where C - 1 and S - 2 Lake Whitefish is allowed. In that respect, when the angler with a Conservation License fishes on Lake Simcoe the weekend after a successful trip to a northern lake with 6 Whitefish in his freezer or car, he is essentially over his limit.

In that respect, I expected that the angler may still be able to fish for Lake Simcoe's Lake Whitefish on a catch and release basis, but he is not allowed to retain any additional fish. It is similar to the scenario where an angler had already reached his catch/possession on Lake Simcoe but he can continue to fish on catch and releases basis on Lake Simcoe.

Here's another similar issue. On Lake Ontario, you are allowed a sport limit of 1 Atlantic Salmon if the fish was caught while trolling in the lake. If you retain one Atlantic Salmon from the lake, puts it in the freezer, and fish any of the Lake Ontario tributaries (where possession limit of Atlantic Salmon = 0), is that illegal? I would say it is not illegal, but you would have to prove to the CO that you have indeed caught the Atlantic Salmon from Lake Ontario.

For most part, unless the MNR suspects you of blatant catch and possession violations, they will not check your freezer for possession limit compliance (which is kind of sad actually). However, it is reasonable that they could check your car for your catch and it would be very difficult to prove your story.

It is probably better to be under the limit most of the time anyways. Not only does it avoid these ambiguity, it is also better for your health anyways. You cannot simply consume 6 whitefish within a month without reaching your consumption allowance if you follow the consumption guide. Having a whitefish sit in the freezer for months would simply spoil the quality of the fish. If you dispose of a poor quality fish, you are essentially wasting resources which is a violation in its own right as well.

[tweedwolfscream]

Yes well here is where the letter of the law gets troubling... as you point out, "The possession limit is the number you are allowed to have in your possession on hand, in cold storage, in transit or anywhere." It doesn't matter if you're fishing or not! So in your Atlantic salmon example, even if that successful trip on Lake Ontario was the only fishing you did that day, just bringing the salmon to your home on the mainland puts it in a zone where there's no open season for Atlantics. Of course it sounds pretty ridiculous to think that that would constitute poaching, so maybe we're expected to understand that posession limits are based on where the fish was caught, not where it is being posessed?

I'd also disagree that it's impossible to eat 6 whitefish in a month without exceeding the MOE's recommendations, see for example their monthly consumption advisories for Gull Lake in Haliburton... http://files.ontariogovernment.ca/moe_ma...17847.html But that's a whole other discussion In any case, some fish have much lower limits, eg lake trout on a conservation license, so keeping your limit might happen every time you want to eat your catch at all.

[MuskieBait]

(02-26-2014 12:28 PM)tweedwolfscream Wrote:  I'd also disagree that it's impossible to eat 6 whitefish in a month without exceeding the MOE's recommendations, see for example their monthly consumption advisories for Gull Lake in Haliburton... http://files.ontariogovernment.ca/moe_ma...17847.html But that's a whole other discussion In any case, some fish have much lower limits, eg lake trout on a conservation license, so keeping your limit might happen every time you want to eat your catch at all.

If you share a whitefish in a family meal (assumes 2 adults and 2 children), it is could be possible to consume 6 whitefish within limits...with the caveat of fish size.

If, like me as a single individual, you consume 6 whitefish on your own in a month (even from Gull Lake), you do exceed the consumption limits.

For example, typical Haliburton whitefish have an average size of 1.5-2lbs. After dressing (filleted and skinned), you may retain 40-50% of that body weight. For ease of argument aske, I'll say 0.75lb (or 12oz) of flesh is retained from an average Haliburton whitefish.

According to the consumption guide, a meal is considered as an 8oz portion of filleted and skinned flesh from the dorsal portion of the fish (ie. back meat). Since you are likely to consume meat other than the dorsal portions as well (you do eat the tail and the meat around the rib cage, as well as just behind the belly), the consumption limits decreases due to the higher levels of contaminant in the fattier non-dorsal meat. That factor should be considered also.

If 6 whitefish, each average 1.5lbs, are retained and consumed by one individual throughout the month, such individual would have consumed 4.5lbs (or 72oz) of dressed whitefish. That equates to 9 allowable portions, which puts the individual over the limit. Again, it is not likely that you would simply consume the dorsal meat and not meat from other areas.

I've also determined in the past that, as a single person, I can only consume 1 whitefish per month from Lake Simcoe, since the average size whitefish I used to catch were 24" (actually all the whitefish I used to catch, with the odd exception, were between 23-24" in size). A 24" whitefish is around 4lbs. After dressing you may retain about 2lbs of meat, which is essentially 4 portions. Lake Simcoe whitefish has a limit of 4 meals per month at 24"...so really, if you keep 1 whitefish each weekend, and you consume said whitefish each weekend as an individual, you are way over limit. I see people keeping their sport limit of 2 whitefish each weekend and wonder if they had actually done the math...even if they share the catch with a family of 4.

I have done the math since I used to limit out on Lake Simcoe whitefish pretty consistently a few years ago...and I started to question if it was that safe eat whitefish every weekend and if I should be keeping my conservation limit of 1 whitefish each trip. After figuring it out, I started sharing my whitefish meals with my roommate to lessen on my contamination load

[tweedwolfscream]

OK you're right, the consumption advisories go by meals, not individual fish, and a whole fish is often more than the assumed meal size.

But I'd also point out that 8 is kind of an arbitrary number. It's the maximum number that the consumption advisories will say, indicating the safest fish. Why 8? Because of some health recommendation somewhere that since fish are so good for your health, you should eat fish twice a week. Twice a week translates to 8 times a month, so that's what the MOE used as their upper limit. Doesn't mean more wouldn't be even better for your heart.

Actually I found a different version of the story in the intro to the consumption advisories guide:

Quote:This maximum recommended consumption frequency was based on the results of surveys indicating that most anglers do not consume sport fish more frequently than 8 meals per month. However, many of these fish can be safely consumed more frequently. Anyone who consumes sport fish more frequently than 8 meals per month is advised to contact the Sport Fish Contaminant Monitoring Program (416-327-6816 or 1-800-820-2716, sportfish.moe@ontario.ca).

In the end, of course, fish consumption is a health tradeoff. I remember reading a study of the health impacts of farmed Atlantic salmon (which carry cancer-causing PCBs) and the researchers concluded that salmon prevent many times more deaths by heart disease than they cause by cancer. Of course that's a very sketchy thing to quantify, and the researchers had jerry-rigged some sort of methodology for coming up with that statement, but it's food for thought at least. Also, since the buildup of contaminants in your body is cumulative over the long term, the other question is how many times a year are you catching your non-Simcoe 6-whitefish limit? Probably not much in the summer.

[MuskieBait]

(02-26-2014 03:08 PM)tweedwolfscream Wrote:  Actually I found a different version of the story in the intro to the consumption advisories guide:

Quote:This maximum recommended consumption frequency was based on the results of surveys indicating that most anglers do not consume sport fish more frequently than 8 meals per month. However, many of these fish can be safely consumed more frequently. Anyone who consumes sport fish more frequently than 8 meals per month is advised to contact the Sport Fish Contaminant Monitoring Program (416-327-6816 or 1-800-820-2716, sportfish.moe@ontario.ca).

I'll tell you how I would view that statement.

If the statement is true, the number of meals allowed for a given species, at a given size, would remain the same between the general cohort and the sensitive cohort. That is, for example, the consumption of 8 meals per month would be allowed for both the general cohort and the sensitive cohort, as illustrated by Gull Lake's Lake Whitefish between 16-18in.

But, at certain size, the number of meals for the sensitive cohort is reduced for the given species at a given size. That indicates, at least the way I understand it, that the amount of contaminant in said fish of said size actually threatens the allowable consumption limit, and a reduction in consumption should be made for the sensitive cohort, as seen in Gull Lake's Lake Whitefish between 22-24in. Otherwise, why is the consumption limit reduced if it is safe to consume more than 8 meals per month? Thus, if there is a reduction for the sensitive cohort, it indicats that the maximum allowable 8 meals per month for the general cohort is not merely based on an assumption of 2 fish meals per week partake by the public, but an actual consumption limit that should be considered based on contaminant levels.

It is entirely possible to consume more than 8 meals of sport fish a month in a typical North American diet. An 8oz fillet of fish is fairly typical serving size. The 8 meals could involve 4 dinners and 4 lunches over the course of the month.

[OldTimer]

The larger fish diets may be different hence varying contamination levels.

And it is quite possible in some areas, lifestyles, and heritage that 8 meals gets exceeded by a ton.

Consider the sequence of events and situations that lead to the fish monitoring program being set up, along with pollution regulations being established.

A major one being the Grassy Narrows mercury situation about 40 years ago. Bad and sad news back then - that continues even now: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/mercury-po...-1.1132578

OT

[tweedwolfscream]

You have a point, MuskieBait, reduced consumption recommendations for the sensitive population does imply that the 8 for the general population maybe isn't shorthand for unlimited. Although I'm not really sure how the G and S recommendations relate to each other and I'm sure it varies between contaminants. In any case I think the consumption advisories are very conservative, at least the ones at the upper end. Don't get me wrong, I always read them when they're available for where I'm fishing, and find them very valuable in determining what can and can't be eaten in less-than-pristine waters (and even some pristine waters where mercury's an issue), but I don't "do the math" and calculate consumption perfectly, because there are other contaminants and health risks in foods besides game fish that no one's giving consumption advisories for.

[OldTimer]

(02-26-2014 12:16 PM)MuskieBait Wrote:  The MNR clearly defines your possession limit.

"The possession limit is the number you are allowed to have in your possession on hand, in cold storage, in transit or anywhere. Possession limits are the same as one day's catch limit except where otherwise specified."

It is a conundrum when it comes to roving anglers who may fish northern lakes where possession limit of C - 6 or S -12 Lake Whitefish are allowed, while the same angler may fish on Lake Simcoe where C - 1 and S - 2 Lake Whitefish is allowed. In that respect, when the angler with a Conservation License fishes on Lake Simcoe the weekend after a successful trip to a northern lake with 6 Whitefish in his freezer or car, he is essentially over his limit.

In that respect, I expected that the angler may still be able to fish for Lake Simcoe's Lake Whitefish on a catch and release basis, but he is not allowed to retain any additional fish. It is similar to the scenario where an angler had already reached his catch/possession on Lake Simcoe but he can continue to fish on catch and releases basis on Lake Simcoe.

Here's another similar issue. On Lake Ontario, you are allowed a sport limit of 1 Atlantic Salmon if the fish was caught while trolling in the lake. If you retain one Atlantic Salmon from the lake, puts it in the freezer, and fish any of the Lake Ontario tributaries (where possession limit of Atlantic Salmon = 0), is that illegal? I would say it is not illegal, but you would have to prove to the CO that you have indeed caught the Atlantic Salmon from Lake Ontario.

For most part, unless the MNR suspects you of blatant catch and possession violations, they will not check your freezer for possession limit compliance (which is kind of sad actually). However, it is reasonable that they could check your car for your catch and it would be very difficult to prove your story.

It is probably better to be under the limit most of the time anyways. Not only does it avoid these ambiguity, it is also better for your health anyways. You cannot simply consume 6 whitefish within a month without reaching your consumption allowance if you follow the consumption guide. Having a whitefish sit in the freezer for months would simply spoil the quality of the fish. If you dispose of a poor quality fish, you are essentially wasting resources which is a violation in its own right as well.

Don't forget that the "general" possession limits can be larger than "zone" limits as seen in the regs:

   

These higher limits would support some storage (at home) of multiple zone limit catches across several outings or more.

Cheers,

OldTimer