Robinson Creek Restoration.

[Jeremy Ray Green]

Nick suggested removing beaver dams, robinson Creek already has a restoration plan that is underway, and those beaver dams he has spoken about are already removed.

Markham has a firearm by-law those beavers were not "SHOT" as was mentioned.

It was mentioned somone heard one persons account about activities at the hatchery program, or thoughts about what the MNR stocking numbers are, You should come to check these things out for your self, before talking about it.

these creeks are supposed to be cold-water creeks, and Large mouth bass would be an invasive specie here.

I understand your point of the log jams holding fish, Believe me i have taken advantage of these situations.
I.E. Trout opener last season....


The creeks are supposed to be cold water streams, so that the young fish that you would not target can thrive in them at young ages before they hit the big lake and mature.

and also to let the adult spawners it is time to get busy.


I agree killling off one animal to help another does not always make sense, and allot of the work does have to do with flood prevention.


Nick is trying to rally a group together to pick a part of a water system, to help establish a restoration project there,

He has made suggestions, you can choose to help, and offer to work within his suggestions or also stand beside him and create the project with him,

I will Get the support for Nicks New Idea, Who is going to back him up?

It will not involve at this point killing or removing beaver dams we will leave that up to the MNR who owns the beavers in the first place.


Check your inbox nick, and give me a call...


BTW, you can help stock rainbow trout into the rouge river this sunday, meet at the ringwood hatchery for 8:00 am.
we will then goto the milne fish ladder and weigh measure the length of and tag rainbow trout and suckers, yesterday we had our first sucker and Today we had our first sunfish of the season,

total to date since march 28th,

604 rainbow
15 suckers
1 sunfish


you want to help or just stand by and analyse the situation???

[Giuga10]

(04-19-2013 01:27 PM)MuskieBait Wrote:  I'm still not 100% for supporting this cause...

Beavers, and their dams, are as much a part of the ecosystem as the fish in the stream. The reason beavers are found in the creek is because they considered the creek a good home for their families. It is a habitat that is natural enough, quiet enough and protected enough to build a home.

In nature, abandoned dams eventually rot and break apart from ice jams and spring flooding. This is the natural cycle.

The dams create new environment for specific species that require slower water. Sunfish, rockbass, largemouth bass, white sucker and bullhead catfish are just some of these species that appreciates the pond formed behind a beaver dam. Minnow species in creeks can also adapt to slow water habitats. Creek chubs, common shiners and blacknose dace can adapt. Ducks, heron and other bird species also appreciate the new habitat, as well many emergent plants.

To remove the dam is to destroy the habitat for some of these species, while trying to create habitat for others. I know your intention means well, Nick, in terms of trying to reestablish trout in the creek. However, in nature, beavers will build dams and remove trout habitat, while creating habitat for other species. And as long as there is cool water in the creek, resident trout can also thrive in a creek with beaver dams. You just won't see migratory steelheads...but you could see resident brown trout and brook trout appreciating it (if the water is cool enough...if there are underwater springs and a large enough riparian zone with overhead cover (trees, overhanging bushes) to cool down the water temperature.

Anyways, my point is that we have our "best intentions"...but nature often has her own intentions. Unless it is something that we do as human to affect the creek, I would rather say leave nature be and let her make her changes the way she intents it. That is...until it gets to the point which the abandoned dams lead to flooding of neighbouring lands and damage to homes, then sure, remove the abandoned dams.

**BTW, the dams were not even abandoned in the first place. MNR SHOT THE BEAVERS!!! Some call it wildlife management...I call it tampering with nature...in my books, it is a big no-no. Again, unless property is threatened, that's the only "if" I'll consider.

Now, that does not mean I'm not in favour of cleaning up garbage or naturalizing man-made channels to better the environment. But habitat restoration and human-intended stream engineering often walk a fine line, especially when there is underlying agendas behind the project.

---

BTW, I'm saying this because a few years ago, some "well meaning" individuals decided to remove a great log jam on Oshawa Creek at a favourite spot of mine. That log jam used to be THE holding area for steelhead and white suckers during the spawning run, and it provided great habitat for the resident brown trout and the odd brook trout.

Sure, it was very difficult to fish and land fish with that log jam in the way, but my friends and I understood the value of the log jam is much beyond our "selfish" need for fishable waters. That log jam was what made the spot so amazing. But some idiot decided the log jam (a natural one mind you) does not belong, dug the single big log out of the slope and then removed the other entangled drift wood away.

After the log jam was removed, the number of all species declined dramatically. We used to catch 9-15" brown trout consistently in a creek no wider than a car lane. One day, we caught a dozen brown trout to 15", a dozen suckers and half a dozen steelhead to 8lbs in that pool. The first year I fished that creek we landed over 20 steelhead between the 4 of us in that one pool, and lost just as many of them. Now I couldn't even find a brown trout after 3 extra years of fishing it, and the steelhead run gets smaller and smaller. That one pool with its log jam was the last significant holding area where fish could rest and hide from predators before the upstream spawning grounds. Eventually, I just gave up fishing that spot.

Again, sometimes "best intentions" may not be the best course of action. It's all about perspective. I tend to take the perspective toward actions that benefit all species and not just one species alone, and toward all organisms and not just fish alone.

I understand that beavers should be treated well too but there are no longer any beavers in the river so the extra unnecessary obstruction just sets the river back.

Also my intentions are not to re-establish trout in the river, there is a much more important fish that calls this river home... the Redside Dace (a species categorized as threatened) also I am also concerned about suckers, a great and native fish to this river which also spawns during the spring, I took a walk by the river today and noticed many suckers trying to make their way upstream but once they run into the blockages, they will not be able to reach their grounds because they are denied access, trout of course do play a factor in this as well because years ago this stream also used to be home to resident bows and browns but since 2003 I believe, there has been no record of these fish in the river.

Also in a reply I posted above I stated that the Beavers were shot and removed from the river by the MNR so yes I do know this.

Lastly my intentions are not to only remove dams. There is also A LOT of garbage and pollution in the river and unlike the dams the garbage does not break down over the winter. Just one example is a sunken shopping cart in the middle of a pool full of garbage which could be a great spot for fish but instead is covered in garbage.

[MuskieBait]

A little defensive there...

Hey, I said in the original response that if it is about removing garbage, that's cool and I'm all for it. If it is removing natural obstructions, my thought is to leave it be. It's nature...not human engineered stream calculated and planned to maximize for fish habitat. Fish can find their own suitable habitat.

When a stream floods high enough, suckers can make it up low debris dams or on the side of the debris dam where water overflows. There is no need to assist. This is the nature at work...sometime they can get up, sometimes they don't.

As for trout stocking at Milne Dam...until they remove Milne Dam and the warm stagnant Milne Pond, I don't see the point. Here's an idea...before you stock more trout into Rouge, let's do a study to see how many smolts from the headwaters of Rouge actually survive passing through Milne Pond on their way to the lake. Juvenile rainbows that pass through Milne in summer/fall in that stagnant hot water...hm...might as well call it fish soup.

Downstream of Milne Dam, that's a whole different issue. But how much spawning success is there and rearing habitat there is for rainbow trout? Why is the population still so low? If the habitat is right, you don't need any assistance.

I'm not trying to be negative...but there are a lot of root problems that needs to be solved...and when those are solved, you will need minimal stocking to maintain a SUSTAINABLE population. Put and take fishery is not the long term way to go...just look across the pond at New York State...

[Jeremy Ray Green]

sorry nick,

Where did you see these migratory suckers?
and did you notice rainbow there too ??

if its at any spot north of robinson street, it is because of ongoing restoration work to the system,

I can get you in contact with the proper people, please call or text me.

~Jeremy

[OldTimer]

Hey Nick,

I applaude your commitment and concern to this venture.

Proceed in your quest - specifically regarding the clean up and removal of "garbage". It willl only serve to improve all.

Small steps initially sometimes produce leaps forward....... be patient and keep hammering the wall

That said.......... can you recommend a suitable bait for beavers?........ smile

Cheers,

OldTimer

[MuskieBait]

Remember...it all starts with the habitat. If the habitat is just right, a fish population can explode.

That's why invasive species can take over so quickly with minimal seeding populations. Look at Northern Snakehead, Cobra Snakehead, Silver Carp, Bighead Carp, Round Goby, Ruffe...even the initial dumping of Pink Salmon into Lake Superior...when the habitat is just right, and the amount of predator is low, plus little selection pressure, the population explodes and establishes a SUSTAINABLE population in the matter of a few years.

That is what ALL fishery management should aim for.

[Giuga10]

(04-19-2013 06:37 PM)Jeremy Ray Green Wrote:  sorry nick,

Where did you see these migratory suckers?
and did you notice rainbow there too ??

if its at any spot north of robinson street, it is because of ongoing restoration work to the system,

I can get you in contact with the proper people, please call or text me.

~Jeremy

just texted you

[Jeremy Ray Green]

Muskie Bait,


I Agree 100 % fully with your thoughts about the soup water in the milne pond, I also look at toogood pond the same way.


This can be worked on, and I think we could use Nicks idea as a platform, As I have mentioned, robison creek already has a restoration plan setup,
This group could focus on the rouge from hwy 48, to woodbine ave, hwy 7 to 16th avenue...

That is the most significant area of water warming that needs to be doctor'd, and there are no beaver dams in these areas, for the most part.

~Jeremy

[MuskieBait]

Yeah, Toogood Pond is just the same issue on another headwater tributary of the Rouge.

And regarding Nick's comment about trout being in Robinson in 2003 but none now...here's a bit of perspective...on my Year 2000 road map book, there are no residential roads, never mind neighbourhoods in the areas surrounding Robinson Creek. Look at that area now?

Look at how narrow that riparian zone really is. Granted, they did maintained a lot of overhead cover by keeping a lot of the trees, but the water catchment area is very, very small. Summer water level, if I can assume, must have significantly reduced. You need a good water catchment area and ground water supply to keep water level higher and water temperature cooler to support rainbow trout and brown trout. It's amazing that Redside Dace and still survive there.

Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do about the neighbourhood...it's an unfortunate inevitable...but you CAN ask residents to divert water from their roof gutter to exit onto the lawn for ground absorption rather than piping it into the waste water system. You can clean up the creek and restore some habitat. I'm not sure how the stormwater system is set up for Markham, but there are creeks in Mississauga where excess stormwater was allowed to run off into the nearest creek. I hope for Robinson Creek's sake this is not so.

I grew up on Little Etobicoke Creek and I know first hand of all the problems. If you think Robinson Creek is bad...you should see Little Etobicoke Creek. I walk home beside the creek everyday and I fished the creek when I was little (NEVER caught anything in Little Etobicoke BTW...not even creek chubs...although...as a stupid kid back in the day, we used to catch minnow species from Etobicoke Creek and put them into Little Etokicoke hoping those minnows would establish in Little Etobicoke. Even some sunfish from Centennial Park received a relocation We were 12 and stupid. )

Again, I'm not trying to be negative...but I'm trying to get people to think about some of the root issues.

[Giuga10]

(04-19-2013 09:30 PM)MuskieBait Wrote:  Yeah, Toogood Pond is just the same issue on another headwater tributary of the Rouge.

And regarding Nick's comment about trout being in Robinson in 2003 but none now...here's a bit of perspective...on my Year 2000 road map book, there are no residential roads, never mind neighbourhoods in the areas surrounding Robinson Creek. Look at that area now?

Look at how narrow that riparian zone really is. Granted, they did maintained a lot of overhead cover by keeping a lot of the trees, but the water catchment area is very, very small. Summer water level, if I can assume, must have significantly reduced. You need a good water catchment area and ground water supply to keep water level higher and water temperature cooler to support rainbow trout and brown trout. It's amazing that Redside Dace and still survive there.

Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do about the neighbourhood...it's an unfortunate inevitable...but you CAN ask residents to divert water from their roof gutter to exit onto the lawn for ground absorption rather than piping it into the waste water system. You can clean up the creek and restore some habitat. I'm not sure how the stormwater system is set up for Markham, but there are creeks in Mississauga where excess stormwater was allowed to run off into the nearest creek. I hope for Robinson Creek's sake this is not so.

I grew up on Little Etobicoke Creek and I know first hand of all the problems. If you think Robinson Creek is bad...you should see Little Etobicoke Creek. I walk home beside the creek everyday and I fished the creek when I was little (NEVER caught anything in Little Etobicoke BTW...not even creek chubs...although...as a stupid kid back in the day, we used to catch minnow species from Etobicoke Creek and put them into Little Etokicoke hoping those minnows would establish in Little Etobicoke. Even some sunfish from Centennial Park received a relocation We were 12 and stupid. )

Again, I'm not trying to be negative...but I'm trying to get people to think about some of the root issues.

I understand that land development has played a major factor in this but we can't look completely upon this factor although it is probably 85% of the cause. What we can do is focus on that 15% (garbage, habitat, dams ect.) and try to make it better.

And no worries I know your not trying to be negative.