Is Made in China all that bad?

[MuskieBait]

Check this out. I know how I'll spend my next $150 when I have it...

http://www.alanhawk.com/reviews/lth10.html

IMPORTANT NOTE: This reel is made in China...under the QC guidelines and standards of Fin-Nor, a company that had established for quality for quite some time. This is not your over-the-internet, eBay, AliExpress, Amazon seller that sells Chinese manufactured products without much reputation behind the company.

This is to say that don't judge everything based on the place of manufacturing, but rather who is designing and producing these products...and the product itself.

Even so, some reputable companies, like Abu Garcia, Penn and Quantum, make their products in China. And their Chinese made product is far inferior compared to products of the same company made in Sweden (Abu) or USA (Penn). You have to judge each product as its own case.

In this case, the Fin-Nor Lethal 100 is a win. Probably none of the members here will ever get a reel that size to use...but it is an illustration that China made goods are not always bad...although most are pretty bad the majority of the time. It depends on the decision the company made in the design and standard of the product.

** Seriously...brass and stainless steel gearing...and secondary dog clutch...and all sealed bearings...and high number of carbon washers...no-fail magnetic bail...need I say more? Drool...

[zippyFX]

Wow, this review is a great tutorial on the parts and mechanics of a spinning reel.

[MikeH]

I have a two week Aruba fishing trip coming up. I'm thinking this is the reel I should take with me in the suitcase.

Nice find for the money!

[MuskieBait]

Hey Mike, if you are getting one soon, let me know. Maybe we can place the order together and save on the shipping. Two eyes looking for deals is also better than one.

I wish the smaller Lethal was made the same way. A 4000 size reel built to the same standard would really be "Lethal"!

[OldTimer]

(05-20-2014 04:41 PM)MuskieBait Wrote:  Check this out. I know how I'll spend my next $150 when I have it...

http://www.alanhawk.com/reviews/lth10.html

IMPORTANT NOTE: This reel is made in China...under the QC guidelines and standards of Fin-Nor, a company that had established for quality for quite some time. This is not your over-the-internet, eBay, AliExpress, Amazon seller that sells Chinese manufactured products without much reputation behind the company.

This is to say that don't judge everything based on the place of manufacturing, but rather who is designing and producing these products...and the product itself.

Even so, some reputable companies, like Abu Garcia, Penn and Quantum, make their products in China. And their Chinese made product is far inferior compared to products of the same company made in Sweden (Abu) or USA (Penn). You have to judge each product as its own case.

In this case, the Fin-Nor Lethal 100 is a win. Probably none of the members here will ever get a reel that size to use...but it is an illustration that China made goods are not always bad...although most are pretty bad the majority of the time. It depends on the decision the company made in the design and standard of the product.

** Seriously...brass and stainless steel gearing...and secondary dog clutch...and all sealed bearings...and high number of carbon washers...no-fail magnetic bail...need I say more? Drool...

http://ontarioshorefishing.com/forum/Thr...r-under-20

(04-08-2014 01:26 AM)MuskieBait Wrote:  Wow...I just had to reply...

Before you start mouthing off everything and putting Chinese manufacturing and government on the pedestal...

1) Chinese online sellers do not innovate...they STEAL original designs from other reputable companies like Shimano and Daiwa and produce cheap replicas of junk with poor material and workmanship. Support these crooks and you sell your integrity for a cheap discount.

2) Yes, Chinese online sellers use the internet to launder money. Yes, let's support dirty money and more of it...because it will make a better world and benefit the honest Chinese workers who earn next to nothing while these crooks take advantage of everyone that works for them or with them.

3) Yes, China has buying power and Chinese are taking over international properties and assets. So were the Japanese post war. Read a little about what happened to the Japanese when they spend most of their hard earned money to own Manhattan and the US...and see how that affected the failure of their economy and banking system. History lessons should be learned.

4) As someone working in the medical research field, and coworker with many Chinese-Canadians who used to hold prestigious positions in China including radiation oncologists, cardiologists, professors...etc, none of them are willing to conduct research in China...in a field where integrity is demanded and expected. Time and time again examples were shown where published results from China were fabricated and false results were reported. So much for improvement in quality in a field where human lives are at stake. If these professional cannot uphold integrity, forget the crooks such as businessmen.

Keep drinking the Kool-aid...

I'm not saying Chinese is not gaining economic and political positions in the world...but to say that supporting these online business is helping innovations and improvement in standard...it is laughable. You simply do not know what you are talking about.

And yes, I AM CHINESE and I do have family in Hong Kong and China and I do watch the CHINESE GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED news. The things that goes on in China scares me...and that's why I have very little interest in returning to and working in China unless for reputable international companies as a rep in China.

I'm losin' track here - things change so quickly…………. but.... “opinions may vary” as I say………..smile

I still like their egg rolls and pineapple balled chicken…………. Big grin.

Cheers,

OldTimer

[MuskieBait]

Chinese online sellers are different from Fin-Nor using offshore manufacturing to produce their products.

Hypothetical example...

1) Fin-Nor seek Chinese manufacturer to produce the Lethal reel.

2) Fin-Nor places tight QC standards on material sourced, machining process, assembly quality...etc and makes sure the manufacturer complies...and hopefully...if a bad batch arise...then Fin-Nor does not release the poor batch into market...and if consistency is poor Fin-Nor would seek new manufacturer to comply with standards.

3) Fin-Nor sells these high quality reels to the consumers.

Everything is fine up until here. Perfectly honourable business practices using international economics to increase efficiency (moving offshore decreases labour, material and capital cost to increase profit...it's economics...live with it). I don't see any issue really...until the following...

4) Chinese manufacturer of the Lethal reel takes the design plans from Fin-Nor without permission.

5) Manufacturer source low quality materials and use low quality assembly practices to produce significantly inferior product.

6) Manufacturer slightly modifies several obvious features (eg. areas that were ported out to reduce weight is now not ported), put on different paint scheme or plating scheme and call this a "new" design reel..."original"...Chinese domestic designed and manufactured.

7) Manufacturer sells these reels online such as Amazon, eBay or AliExpress.

See the issue here?

It is perfectly fine if Shimano, Daiwa or Fin-Nor wish to move their production offshore as long as quality of product is maintained...nothing wrong with that (you can argue about losing jobs...etc...but then North Americans are not willing to work for the wages and under the standards of their Asian counterparts...don't blame Asian labourers for being accommodating). I'm even fine if a Chinese manufacturer did design their own products and sell it as it is...nothing wrong with that...even if it is cheaper quality...as long as they are honest in their practices and honourable in it.

The issue I have is the secondary underhanded "black market" products and how they come about. My comments are on the unreputed online sellers that claimed to design and produce their own quality products when all they do is to steal other's design, use poor quality raw material, slab on a new painting scheme and slab on their name, and sell it like it was their own.

For example...

http://www.alanhawk.com/reviews/tebse.html

Which is entirely "based" (copy) from the Stella SW...with a few cost cutting modifications...

http://www.alanhawk.com/reviews/stlsw.html

But if you read the reviews, you see the deficiencies...

My further issue is the consumers of these goods standing by these online manufacturers and supporting their cause like it is something good and holy.

---

What's even more atrocious? Companies claiming a US made product when in fact it was ordered from Chinese OEM company...off the shelf with slight modifications on looks...now that's a new low...

http://www.alanhawk.com/reviews/cny65.html

See how all that works?

[OldTimer]

(05-21-2014 04:59 PM)MuskieBait Wrote:  Chinese online sellers are different from Fin-Nor using offshore manufacturing to produce their products.

Hypothetical example...

1) Fin-Nor seek Chinese manufacturer to produce the Lethal reel.

2) Fin-Nor places tight QC standards on material sourced, machining process, assembly quality...etc and makes sure the manufacturer complies...and hopefully...if a bad batch arise...then Fin-Nor does not release the poor batch into market...and if consistency is poor Fin-Nor would seek new manufacturer to comply with standards.

3) Fin-Nor sells these high quality reels to the consumers.

Everything is fine up until here. Perfectly honourable business practices using international economics to increase efficiency (moving offshore decreases labour, material and capital cost to increase profit...it's economics...live with it). I don't see any issue really...until the following...

4) Chinese manufacturer of the Lethal reel takes the design plans from Fin-Nor without permission.

5) Manufacturer source low quality materials and use low quality assembly practices to produce significantly inferior product.

6) Manufacturer slightly modifies several obvious features (eg. areas that were ported out to reduce weight is now not ported), put on different paint scheme or plating scheme and call this a "new" design reel..."original"...Chinese domestic designed and manufactured.

7) Manufacturer sells these reels online such as Amazon, eBay or AliExpress.

See the issue here?

It is perfectly fine if Shimano, Daiwa or Fin-Nor wish to move their production offshore as long as quality of product is maintained...nothing wrong with that (you can argue about losing jobs...etc...but then North Americans are not willing to work for the wages and under the standards of their Asian counterparts...don't blame Asian labourers for being accommodating). I'm even fine if a Chinese manufacturer did design their own products and sell it as it is...nothing wrong with that...even if it is cheaper quality...as long as they are honest in their practices and honourable in it.

The issue I have is the secondary underhanded "black market" products and how they come about. My comments are on the unreputed online sellers that claimed to design and produce their own quality products when all they do is to steal other's design, use poor quality raw material, slab on a new painting scheme and slab on their name, and sell it like it was their own.

For example...

http://www.alanhawk.com/reviews/tebse.html

Which is entirely "based" (copy) from the Stella SW...with a few cost cutting modifications...

http://www.alanhawk.com/reviews/stlsw.html

But if you read the reviews, you see the deficiencies...

My further issue is the consumers of these goods standing by these online manufacturers and supporting their cause like it is something good and holy.

---

What's even more atrocious? Companies claiming a US made product when in fact it was ordered from Chinese OEM company...off the shelf with slight modifications on looks...now that's a new low...

http://www.alanhawk.com/reviews/cny65.html

See how all that works?

Problem is....... sorry...... but all that aint workin' for me.......... and lots more.

All of the companies you mention going offshore are not Canadian but from the USA, other Asian locales, or Europe. So "we" really cant do a thing about this "process" going down.

We here in Canada who participate are sadly sending our $ off shore so the funds can be used to buy this country and its resources ........... slowly.......... but surely.

I wont even get into sending our "raw" resources across borders.

I try the best I can to buy local first, or Canadian when I can...... but it's not possible for everything in the shopping time I have available.

Other than produce and meat - Today - it is actually getting difficult to find something "Made in Canada" here in the box stores. supermarkets, and chains.

One old saying is "Screw me once, shame on you........... screw me twice, shame on me"

Problem is our "screwed" counter is on its way to infinity.....and many here are smiling & think it's a great deal........Shame on us.

Regards, (cant say cheers on this one)

OldTimer

[MuskieBait]

Then I wish you luck finding a Canadian reel manufacturer for spinning and casting reels...not simply Canadian owned company...but Canadian designed and manufactured products. Yes, there are Canadian companies that makes fly reels and centerpin reels. As far as I know, such thing is like the limit of some math functions...DOES NOT EXIST.

The best we have for North American made is Penn, Accurate, Avet, Van Staal and ZeeBass being "common"...South Bend, Pflueger and Shakespeare "sold out" long time ago already...and most of the spinning reels that Penn produced as well as many of the low end conventional gear are also offshore produced too. You won't get a US made Penn unless you are willing to spend on a Torque ($660 for the spinner or $450 for the star drag), selected Senator reels such as Baja Special, 116L and 117L, or the Penn International series of reels.

Unless you are willing to shell out at least $200 for a reel (Avet SX being the cheapest US made reel from that list of manufacturer), good luck trying to find a cheaply priced reel that is US made.

Like I said...there's a difference between supporting Penn's offshore production reels vs. AliExpress user XYZ's reel.

Until that time, you're just buying offshore products...and crying over spilled milk about offshore production. Good luck finding the unicorn (cheap, quality, Canadian).

[OldTimer]

(05-22-2014 07:49 PM)MuskieBait Wrote:  Then I wish you luck finding a Canadian reel manufacturer for spinning and casting reels...not simply Canadian owned company...but Canadian designed and manufactured products. Yes, there are Canadian companies that makes fly reels and centerpin reels. As far as I know, such thing is like the limit of some math functions...DOES NOT EXIST.

The best we have for North American made is Penn, Accurate, Avet, Van Staal and ZeeBass being "common"...South Bend, Pflueger and Shakespeare "sold out" long time ago already...and most of the spinning reels that Penn produced as well as many of the low end conventional gear are also offshore produced too. You won't get a US made Penn unless you are willing to spend on a Torque ($660 for the spinner or $450 for the star drag), selected Senator reels such as Baja Special, 116L and 117L, or the Penn International series of reels.

Unless you are willing to shell out at least $200 for a reel (Avet SX being the cheapest US made reel from that list of manufacturer), good luck trying to find a cheaply priced reel that is US made.

Like I said...there's a difference between supporting Penn's offshore production reels vs. AliExpress user XYZ's reel.

Until that time, you're just buying offshore products...and crying over spilled milk about offshore production. Good luck finding the unicorn (cheap, quality, Canadian).

That is exactly the problem. We collectively supported it's growth, and sadly continue to do so. Like lemmings into the sea.

I do not recall stating anything re sources of Canadian reels.

Both in my personal life and in business - I've found that "spilt milk" , can, with effort and conviction be wiped up eventually.

Like I always say "opinions may vary".

Cheers,

OldTimer

[MuskieBait]

We continue to collectively support it because we continue to have a financial advisor that we've to report to...this financial advisor may be the wife, or your family budget. That's reality...and you can't deny reality.

People will speak admirably about "buying local" or "buying Canadian"...but when that price tag hits the checkbook...how many actually carry that ideal forward into action? Not many...because our human nature strives to survive (maintain a sensible family budget) or to keep peace (um...the wife)...and if given little choice, we succumb to those pressure and places those priorities over ideals. For that reason alone, we collectively support offshore production. You cannot deny it...the proof is in the pudding...otherwise, offshore production cannot survive or even exist if consumers do not demand it (ie, product at a certain quality standard at a low price point)

A previous point that you made...

"We here in Canada who participate are sadly sending our $ off shore so the funds can be used to buy this country and its resources ........... slowly.......... but surely.

I wont even get into sending our "raw" resources across borders."

Without this international trade, Canadian economy would greatly deteriorate. Our economy is greatly driven by our natural resources including lumber, mineral, metal, natural gas, oil and water. How much of these would we consume if we were to stop the trade? What jobs would so many Canadians have if we stop our natural resource export sector?

Who would buy all this wheat and beef that is supporting our Canadian farmers? Who would be buying all the expensive Ice Wines from our Niagara wineries? I don't drink Ice Wine on the regular. Do you? How much maple syrup can you consume until you get diabetes? Can Canadians consumer enough to match the international hunger for maple syrup to support maple bush farmers at the current production level?

Our GDP is great and we have the modern, luxury lives because we are able to produce beyond our needs and sell the excess through international trades. You can only trade if you have items that other desire...and they have something that we desire. Otherwise, we would fall back into local (even national) economies where limited trades provide limited growth...in similar fashion as third world or developing countries. Would you like to live in a world again in third world condition? You won't even be able to afford a computer to comment on this forum post...nevermind that, you may not even have infrastructure for internet access.

And if it wasn't for these international trade, will we have fresh blueberries from Chile in the dead of winter? Would you have the "luxury" of getting bananas at all? Bananas are not really a luxury items...it's almost integrated into our daily lives...but the last I check, I don't see any banana trees growing in Ontario forests.

You can also forget getting about our Canadian icon...Timmies...because without international trade, we won't have coffee beans either. But...We'll definitely have a zombie apocalypse with millions of caffeine-addicted drinkers forced in rehab. Get ready your zombie gear...and remember...double tap, good cardio, seatbelts and avoid washrooms.

Certainly bananas and coffee are not from China...or even offshore...but these are just examples of our current global economy which we do depend on. To suggest that we should become an island, shut our trade borders, and "Buy Canadian" will support our own economy enough to stand on our own two feet is delusional at best. I'm not saying you had suggested this, OT...but this concept of "buy local first and always" is admirable, but not always the best for the economy of Canada.

There is certain argument for local economies though...I do not deny that...and in fact I do support it...especially locally grown foods that can be had when in season. I'll take local apples, peaches, cherries, blueberries...etc over fruits from elsewhere...but we don't have local freshly ripen blueberries in December...do we?

I think of it this way...we buy a US company produced China manufactured reel, and we get fresh California strawberries in the winter...pretty fair trade.

Or...we sell Canadian hardwood to Chinese women and in turn receive Chinese silk lingerie for Canadian women...again pretty fair trade.